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A Contrast of Colors
Consider the following:
Courage in white:
Lunacy and hypocrisy in pink:
Courage in white:
Lunacy and hypocrisy in pink:
posted by Robert at 10:29 AM
Saturday, February 09, 2008
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25 Comments:
It's also a contrast in political systems where freedom of speech and assemblage is mandated by one and observed (by most) but prohibited or strictly controlled in the other.
Not to belabor the point I made in the other post, but I wonder if the Damas de Blanco are ridiculed, maligned, harassed, and called names for speaking their mind in Havana by Castroites.
Probably. But at least they appear to be able to walk down a street without being attacked.
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Not to belabor the point I made in the other post, but I wonder if the Damas de Blanco are ridiculed, maligned, harassed, and called names for speaking their mind in Havana by Castroites.
Probably. But at least they appear to be able to walk down a street without being attacked.
It's not probably. It's definitely. I know you have a deep disrespect for us over at Babalu. But if you were to put that aside for a second and paid enough attention to the posts that have been put up over there and in other Cuban blogs concerning the Damas and other dissident groups being harrassed, you would have absolutely no doubt whatsover.
Okay, so they're treated no differently than Code Pink activists are in Little Havana.
You got me there.
Although I have yet to see a picture of Code Pink strolling down SW 8th Street. Maybe that day came today. Watch the Herald.
As far as babalu goes, Robert, I read all of it. That may be the problem. Because the meaningful message that you and the others bring to the table is almost always drowned out by the hysterics, the vulgarities and the crass characterizations of everyone who doesn't see the world exactly...exactly...like a CA hardliner.
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Rick,
I don't believe you really understand. You see, in Cuba the government acts as the harassing agent. Here, some people may get out of hand, they ultimately get criticized, lauded, whatever.
I don't understand where you're going here. If you want to equate Vigilia Mambisa with castro, go right ahead. It's a free country. I'm no fan of either groups. If your goal is to use Vigilia Mambisa to discredit all hard-liners and their values, be my guest. But for someone who purports himself to be an open-minded thinker, that would be a pretty shallow thing to believe.
We've been down this path before, Robert, as you know. Not ever CA is a hardliner. Not every hardliner is an extremist. There are varying degrees within any such groupings.
But I do think there are certain elements of the CA hardliner community that mirror the intolerance, violence, and authoritativeness ("The streets of Miami belong to the Cubans!") of Castro. Obviously, not all the way down to the finite details, but there are similarities, in my opinion. Most importantly, I think these passionate folks fail to see that when they do the things they do, they're not much different in many regards than the man they despise and hate so much.
And I did notice what you had to say the first time CP showed up in Miami. This is meant as a positive comment, by the way.
So, yeah, I do realize there are differences.
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FYI, this is more like it.
A dozen protesters demanding the arrest of Luis Posada Carriles were met by more than 100 counterprotesters at a demonstration in front of the Versaillés Cafe in Little Havana Saturday.
The event was the second time in less than a month that the group CodePink had gathered at the famous restaurant but Saturday's demonstrators, separated by Miami police, were peaceful.
[...]
Saturday's rally was largely uneventful. The two sides hurled insults, accusations, and the occassional obscene gesture at each other across SW 8th Street. A dozen members of CodePink occupied the South sidewalk, singing and chanting while waving banners that called Carriles a ``terrorist''.
Across the street, about 150 members of groups such as Vigilia Mambisa and Alpha 66 joined together in front of Versailles with signs that called CodePink ''communists'', ''anti-American'', and inferred that the left-wing group was on the payroll of Venezualan president Hugo Chavez.
There's no parallel between the Code Pink jerks and the Ladies in White. The whole point of Code Pink's MO is to provoke their opponents and make a show of getting arrested, so CP gets into the news. They get bailed out and pay a small fine, if that, for disorderly conduct or whatever they were arrested for. To compare these pampered freaks to freedom-loving people who risk beatings and worse from a totalitarian regime is an insult.
I think it's a mistake to counter-demonstrate against CP. They want a counter-demonstration. They know that no one will hurt them and that they won't pay a significant price for their publicity stunt. Instead of sending 100 people out to counter-protest, which guarantees CP publicity, CP opponents should send a couple of guys with video cams to film the small CP group from, say, across the street. That way the videos would clearly show how few CP-ers there really are. Then put the videos on YouTube, alongside the typical news videos that are usually filmed close to minimize context and make the CP demo seem bigger than it is. (Also, why not video the MSM crews who are standing four feet from the CP people. After all, the media are important players in these events.)
The term "demonstration" has become newspeak for any left-wing publicity stunt that relies on sympathetic press coverage to give a false impression of popularity. Ten people show up, but they make a lot of noise, and the TV crews interview them from four feet away to hide the context of what they are doing and of how unpopular they really are. Nowadays the only real demonstrations are the ones put on by the Damas and people like them (like the Ukranian, Iraqi, Venezuelan and Lebanese pro-democracy demonstrators), who risk their lives to express popular sentiments that their governments want to suppress.
Robert, you're a better man than me to tolerate douchebag Ricks hypocritical ramblings. He's literally made 26th Parallel his second home.
Jonathan:
I would have to disagree. I think it's perfectly okay for Robert to compare these two groups the way he did. I was adding to the discussion by comparing the responses these two groups illicit from those who oppose them in their respective locations.
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Henry, at least a douchebag has an important (and sometimes necessary) purpose in life. Rick has none.
I would have to disagree. I think it's perfectly okay for Robert to compare these two groups the way he did. I was adding to the discussion by comparing the responses these two groups illicit from those who oppose them in their respective locations.
Stop dodging. Of course it's OK to compare the two groups. How else was Robert supposed to point out the profound contrasts between them? Meanwhile you insinuated a false moral equivalence between Cuban-Americans and Castro's thugs: "But at least they [Damas] appear to be able to walk down a street [in Cuba] without being attacked." As if the Code Pinkos are risking anything more serious than a public shouting match, or being arrested for blocking traffic while kicking and screaming for the cameras.
Jonathan: You said...
To compare these pampered freaks to freedom-loving people who risk beatings and worse from a totalitarian regime is an insult.
But that's exactly what Robert did in his post with his two pictures. And then you say...
Of course it's OK to compare the two groups.
But then, I was never comparing the two groups. Robert was.
I was comparing the responses of CA hardliners in Miami to Code Pink with whatever response the Damas [would] get in Havana. Personally, I don't think that comparison is a stretch. No, the responses wouldn't be exactly alike. Yes, the Damas might get thrown in jail by the Castro regime. But the insults, the shouting, the threat of physical violence, the false and malicious characterizations, the denunciations for holding a particular opinion would be very similar if not the same.
As far as your belief that there was no threat of bodily harm to them or their support staff, have you viewed Carlos Miller's video of the first protest? Did you see how the CA hardliners literally chased Code Pink around Little Havana? Based upon that video and the things that have happened previously (re: Bolivarians), I strongly disagree with your assessment of the situation.
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The word "compare" can mean "show differences between" and it can mean "equate." Robert compared CP and the Ladies in White to show the profound differences between the groups and the moral corruption of the dictator-loving Code Pinkos. You used superficial similarities between the two groups to suggest a phony moral equivalence, and by implication to drag down the Ladies in White and validate your bigotry against Cuban Americans. Now you're defending your bogus parallel by insisting that the Pinkos are taking as much risk in Miami as the Damas are in Cuba, which is silly.
So it depends on what your definition of "compare" is?
Alright, Jonathan, I can see you're only interested in dragging this conversation into the regular place where you and Henry and George seem to want to take them.
Not this time, champ. You can carry on without me.
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So it depends on what your definition of "compare" is?
No, it's about making reasonable interpretations of written speech rather than playing gotcha games. Apparently it's terribly important to you to find some inconsistency in what I wrote, never mind that everyone else understood it perfectly.
It's your M.O. You slur groups you don't like, and when you get called on your behavior you accuse the other guy of hypocrisy or inconsistency. Then you split.
I don't know how we'll manage to carry on without you.
"Not this time, champ. You can carry on without me."
There is a God...
Yes, Jonathan, that's me...running away from a discussion. It's just like me you, you know?
When you're done hashing out what "compare" really means, try to realize how idiotic it would be for me to say that you are bigoted towards American women when you express your distaste for Code Pink.
Because it's exactly the same thinking when you you transpose my dislike of Cuban hardliners into a broad brush statement against CA's as a whole.
But you know that, Jonathan, because you're an intelligent person, as is Henry and George.
It's just that it's the only thing you guys have left to come at me with.
I consider that a compliment.
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"Yes, Jonathan, that's me...running away from a discussion. It's just like me you, you know?"
Uhhh, Rick, do you realize just how funny and ironic that statement is coming from you? Hello, McFly!
It's just that it's the only thing you guys have left to come at me with.
We who are not worthy bow down before you, oh Great Snark Ninja.
And there ya go. Two posts.
Nuthin'.
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I leave town, don't check the blog for a couple of days...and BAM!
Jonathan explained it much better than I could have:
There's no parallel between the Code Pink jerks and the Ladies in White. The whole point of Code Pink's MO is to provoke their opponents and make a show of getting arrested, so CP gets into the news. They get bailed out and pay a small fine, if that, for disorderly conduct or whatever they were arrested for. To compare these pampered freaks to freedom-loving people who risk beatings and worse from a totalitarian regime is an insult.
I think it's a mistake to counter-demonstrate against CP. They want a counter-demonstration. They know that no one will hurt them and that they won't pay a significant price for their publicity stunt. Instead of sending 100 people out to counter-protest, which guarantees CP publicity, CP opponents should send a couple of guys with video cams to film the small CP group from, say, across the street. That way the videos would clearly show how few CP-ers there really are. Then put the videos on YouTube, alongside the typical news videos that are usually filmed close to minimize context and make the CP demo seem bigger than it is. (Also, why not video the MSM crews who are standing four feet from the CP people. After all, the media are important players in these events.)
The term "demonstration" has become newspeak for any left-wing publicity stunt that relies on sympathetic press coverage to give a false impression of popularity. Ten people show up, but they make a lot of noise, and the TV crews interview them from four feet away to hide the context of what they are doing and of how unpopular they really are. Nowadays the only real demonstrations are the ones put on by the Damas and people like them (like the Ukranian, Iraqi, Venezuelan and Lebanese pro-democracy demonstrators), who risk their lives to express popular sentiments that their governments want to suppress.
Rick is absolutely right, we can compare the 2 groups. But Jonathan, once again on the ball, accurately notes that a comparison can be used to point out obvious differences. That's exactly what I did in showing the pictures.
I'm sorry Rick, but one of the reasons I cut my commentary short early on in the thread is because there's only so many ways that I can write that oppression in Cuba is systematic (state sponsored) while whatever yelling and screaming done in Miami comes from people who freely choose to act that way without sanction by the government. I don't think this fact needs further rationalizing.
I don't approve of thuggery, whether it originates from the Castro regime or from a bunch of old men on the streets of Miami. No one was rationalizing anything here, Robert.
But when you post these type of pictures and say, "Look at the contrasts!", do you really expect the comparisons to end at the white clothes and the pink undergarments?
Maybe, I don't know. But I don't think extending the comparisons out to the environments in which these two groups operate or the reactions they solicit from those around them, be they they the government or the local population, is as outrageous or contemptible as your other commenters make it out to be.
And I would like someone here to answer the question: When you despise Code Pink for their behavior and actions, are you bigoted towards all American women?
I would particularly like to hear from Jonathan, who says that I'm bigoted towards the entire CA community because of my distaste for many of the hardliners.
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I would particularly like to hear from Jonathan, who says that I'm bigoted towards the entire CA community because of my distaste for many of the hardliners.
No, I'm saying that I think you're bigoted because I've read numerous blog posts and comments in which you apply a moral fine-tooth comb to the actions of Cuban Americans while you ignore much worse actions by members of other groups. Then when you get called on your behavior you say that you're only against CA extremists. Your response here to Robert's post about Code Pink is typical. You're indignant that these poor CP women might be yelled at or abused physically by some CA hothead whom they've provoked as a publicity stunt -- as if that's morally equivalent to what happens in the countries ruled by CP's favorite dictators, who use violence as a routine tool of government policy against peaceful demonstrators.
No, I'm saying that I think you're bigoted because I've read numerous blog posts and comments in which you apply a moral fine-tooth comb to the actions of Cuban Americans while you ignore much worse actions by members of other groups.
Really, Jonathan? The entire Cuban-American population?
It's too bad that SotP is gone or I would invite you to pull one single example from the archives so that I could then call you a verifiable liar. But, alas, they are gone and all I can say now is that you are full of crap. And you know it.
As for the rest, we'll just have to disagree that a CA hardliner harassing or attacking a woman that is dressed in pink and is expressing her opinion is substantively different than one of Castro's agents harassing or attacking a woman that is dressed in white and is expressing her opinion.
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I forget again, but how are the code pink people hypocrites?
Because they have their bush covered?
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