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Politics...
Funny how politics can turn on a dime (or an election):
- The folks who reminded America that dissent was patriotic are having a hard time when they're now the "dissentees".
- Those same folks who used to go nuts at the mere sound of one of George W. Bush's "tough guy" speeches now swoon over Obama saying things such as "punch back twice as hard" and "I will not waste time with those who have made the calculation that it’s better politics to kill (his health care plan) than improve it”.
- The folks who used to sneer at the dissenters referenced to above a few years ago are now the ones organizing and marching and being sneered at.
- Because of two years of being thumped at the voting booth, the once-moribund GOP seems to have found some direction - being led by the people, not any one politico.
- The folks who reminded America that dissent was patriotic are having a hard time when they're now the "dissentees".
- Those same folks who used to go nuts at the mere sound of one of George W. Bush's "tough guy" speeches now swoon over Obama saying things such as "punch back twice as hard" and "I will not waste time with those who have made the calculation that it’s better politics to kill (his health care plan) than improve it”.
- The folks who used to sneer at the dissenters referenced to above a few years ago are now the ones organizing and marching and being sneered at.
- Because of two years of being thumped at the voting booth, the once-moribund GOP seems to have found some direction - being led by the people, not any one politico.
posted by Robert at 8:36 PM
18 Comments:
By the same token, isn't it rather funny that the same people who got upset at the Dixie Chicks for saying they were ashamed of their President are now calling their President a Nazi and yelling that he's a liar during a speech before Congress? Again, the same people who sat on their hands for eight years as BushCo lied again and again and again. Yeah, now THAT'S funny.
About the dissent, Robert...we're not complaining as much as we are laughing as you guys follow the lead of Beck and Limbaugh.
Palin/Joe The Plumber in 2012!
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I'm glad you agree, Rick.
I'm a little disappointed, however, that you weren't among the ones who called out Democrats in the House when they booed Bush during State of the Union addresses, not to mention all the other times Bush was ridiculed and called "murderer".
Perhaps you couldn't find the right words to express your disdain. Or perhaps you just agreed and thought it was funny.
LOL!!!
Funny!!! Isn't LAUGHTER also a physical reaction to stress, tension, confusion, or anxiety - just like sweaty palms or a raised heart-rate? ;)
I wish you well :) Melek
"When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat." ~ Ronald Reagan
Exactly, Robert.
It's that kind of equivocation that will be rampant by the extreme Right when some wingnut takes a potshot at President Obama. After all, Squeaky Fromme tried it with a Republican, right?
It's all wrong, Robert, no matter who's doing it.
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Leading? Direction? What do you make then, Robert, of the surging undercurrent of non-affiliation or outright disassociation vis-a-vis the GOP by some of the main figures of the tea-party movement? Ryan Rhodes, Freedom Work's Matt Kibbe, the Tea Party Patriots, even Beck's 9/12 Project? More of a loose coalition of libertarians, anti-statists and plain old conspiracy theorists than traditional conservatives. And viceversa, all the establishment Republicans that wisely are saying mining this fringe for votes is OK but adopting the strategies will only paint us all as loons?
Paris vaut bien une messe?
If Bush did it, it was bad.
But if Obama does it, the fact that Bush did it justifies it.
If a small group of leftists objects, they are speaking truth to power.
But if a large group of conservatives and moderates/independents objects, they are fringe racist hatemongers, wackos, extremists, wingnuts etc..
Get with the program, Robert.
Anti-statists? Damn right (sign me up). There are also a lot of mainstream conservatives and independents in the movement, too. I don't know about you, Alex, but I've been to tea parties and I've seen the people who take part in these things. There are kooks and fringe elements in every crowd, especially large ones. Trying to marginalize and dismiss the group as unrepresentative will only serve to strengthen the movement even more.
The point is that the GOP is getting a boost and will be led not by the traditional old guard politician, but by a real, organic movement. Whether you agree with this or not is fine, but I think it's quite obvious based on the size of the crowds at the event in DC as well as the numerous tea parties around the country over the past few months.
Well, it is mainstream GOP strategists who are sounding the alarm (not sure where you got marginalizing or dismissing).
I've driven by to a couple local tea parties. I see mostly fringe elements. Of course I didn't interview everybody there, but most signs were of the "Obama is Hitler/Stalin/muslim, bring my country back" variety, which is fringe to me (and even to Bill O'Reilly who yesterday was saying that rhetoric is counterproductive) but maybe not to you.
The size of the crowds: if you want to go by that, there were much bigger crowds in anti-war protests during Bush. Did it amount to a cohesive movement that changed the Democratic Party old guard? No it didn't. The tea partiers are just a useful movement for the Republican agenda, just like the Christian Right was in the 90s, but they are not an agent of change.
I was actually AT a tea party back in April and spoke to a few people. Sure, there were a few fringe-like signs like the ones you point out, but the solid majority of them were in good taste. Same with the character of the people in attendance. Bill O'Reilly was referring to the fringe element being counterproductive, not the protests as a whole.
The reason these really aren't agents of change is because the basic values professed and held by the representative sample of these folks is already consistent and in line with those of most Americans. You can't deny that America is generally a center-right culture.
I guess you'll deny that Obama/Pelosi/Reid/Democrats is/are a socialist/muslim/communist/ stalinist/nazi who are betraying America and don't thread on me views and I don't understand what taxation without representation means and I don't want to pay for anybody's health care are not exactly center-right but way out to the extreme right?
Sorry, but I see very little of a coherent ideology or a representative sample of Americans in the tea parties, Robert. It's a hodgepodge of fringe ideologies stirred up with talk radio memes, whose main objectives seem to complain and little else. I'm going by what I read in their own blogs and websites and signs. The press, malicious as you believe it to be, didn't write the blogs and signs for them and didn't put words in their mouths. Why don't we do a little exercise? Show me photos where the majority of the signs are center-left views.
You've totally lost me, Alex. But I'll try to respond to what I understood. Most mainstream Americans don't want expansive government ala Western Europe. The fact that people are fed up with the spending and debt that began to accumulate heavily during Bush's second term, coupled with Obama's continued and willing acceleration of the debt, is what has most rational people at these tea parties upset. If you think that believing in a less sprawling federal government, lower taxes, controlled spending and a strong military is "fringe", then there's not much else I can say. By the way, those things I just listed are the driving forces behind these tea parties based on my experience and what's available on the internet if you look beyond the normal blogs and MSM sites. The MSM (elite media) has been largely irresponsible in not covering the tea parties aside from those dubious signs you mention and the occasional derisive comment about the participants.
Why in the world are we looking for center-left signs? As I mentioned, the folks at these tea parties are mostly center-right (representative of America, I belive) and their signs, message and values will reflect that. Besides, what would a center-left sign actually say, other than "Bush lied, people died"?
I understand that's what you believe, but the pictures and interviews show otherwise --and again, this is not just from the "irresponsible" media, it's from the conservative outlets. They are proud of it!
"Lone wolfs." "Fringe elements." "Kooks."
Ever read the comments of some babalu posts, Robert, and see just how much of the "fringe element" visits that site that you contribute to and interact with on a regular basis? And let's not even talk about the posts and the comparisons of President Obama to Fidel Castro.
Right here at 26th Parallel, your co-writer claims that President Obama is a fascist or Stalinist in the comments of the most recent post, for Pete's sake.
I'm not sure that you agree with what these people think of the President of the United States, but the fact of the matter is that you and other conservatives like you are doing nothing to distance yourself from this type of lunancy and, in some cases, giving it a sounding board. As a result, they have become an integral part of the conservative movement today and one that naturally attracts a lot of media attention because of its outrageousness.
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Right here at 26th Parallel, your co-writer claims that President Obama is a fascist or Stalinist in the comments of the most recent post, for Pete's sake.
You'd get a lot farther if you responded to what I wrote rather than dismissing it.
With Obama we have:
-appeal to power
-cult of the leader
-expropriations and corporatism
-attempts to suppress dissent via Stalinist tactics (Alinsky)
We're missing nationalism, so maybe it's socialism rather than fascism. But given Obama's behavior it's foolish to dismiss suggestions that he's a socialist or Stalinist.
...It's a hodgepodge of fringe ideologies stirred up with talk radio memes, whose main objectives seem to complain and little else. I'm going by what I read in their own blogs and websites and signs. The press, malicious as you believe it to be, didn't write the blogs and signs for them and didn't put words in their mouths. Why don't we do a little exercise? Show me photos where the majority of the signs are center-left views.
It's people who don't usually attend political demonstrations. This fact alone reveals that something unusual is going on.
And why would you expect center-left views from these people? This is a center-right country. The views that you and Rick characterize as extreme right are much more common than are leftist views. Lots of ordinary people in this country are conservative. By contrast, leftists tend to be govt employees, union members, academics and young people -- in other words, people who are either on the take from govt or naive idiots.
Obama couldn't be elected, or probably even nominated, in the current political environment, now that everyone can see what he's about. But go ahead and blame everything on talk radio, and on the mysterious extreme right that can't get itself elected but somehow is responsible for undermining an otherwise-popular president.
Rick,
Your arguments only prove how devoid of answers you and many on the left have to those who have legitimate concerns about Obama's policies.
The formula of pointing the finger at Bush, extremists and my association with the "fringe element that I interact with on a daily basis" is shallow, Rick. Rather than discuss the issue, you demonize and find ways to discredit people that aren't on the fringe. Jonathan is 100% right, as usual.
One last thing, Rick. I truly appreciate your concern for the tasteless signs and Obama comparisons to Hitler. Although they represent a minority, they are stupid, counterproductive and need to stop. Nevertheless, where were you when the countless Bush/Hitler comparisons and comments were being fired off by many on the "center-left" during much of the previous 8 years? Did you denounce them as stridently as you would like the kooky right to? Please explain.
Jonathan: compare your "Obama Behavior Attributes" to Bush and, if you're honest with yourself, you will be amazed with what you come up with.
I don't like to respond to this foolishness because it is just that....foolishness. It's like trying to have a sane conversation with a Birther, someone who believes in death panels or a person who is convinced that Obama is the Black Fidel Castro. It's a huge waste of time.
Have your little hallucinations. But don't ask me to try to rationally discuss them.
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An earlier comment of mine:
Rick,
Your arguments only prove how devoid of answers you and many on the left have to those who have legitimate concerns about Obama's policies.
Rick follows with:
I don't like to respond to this foolishness because it is just that....foolishness. It's like trying to have a sane conversation with a Birther, someone who believes in death panels or a person who is convinced that Obama is the Black Fidel Castro. It's a huge waste of time.
Have your little hallucinations. But don't ask me to try to rationally discuss them.
There you have it, folks. Rick just left "Exhibit A" right above this comment. A fitting conclusion to this thread.
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